Posts by Cold Steel

20

Trinitiarian "proof-text" John 20:28 has some problems for "Trinitarians"

by booker-t in

all through my years as a jws and after i have always wondered about john 20:28 where thomas says "my lord and my god" to jesus.

i just could not find a suitable answer for this text to disprove the trinity doctrine.

i really never swallowed the jws intrepretation of "shock" by thomas something like "oh my god" but at the same time i had a gut feeling trinitarians were hiding something about this verse.

Cold Steel

Right on, Abe!

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Laika: I didn't know Mormons believed in purgatory, that's interesting.

It's not Purgatory. No one is "prayed" out. Again, as pointed out above, Origen described it thus: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”

This was the view of the early Christians. Or do you think people instantly go to heaven or hell upon their deaths? It is my belief that a person can be neither saved nor damned in ignorance. That's why Peter said the gospel was preached to those who are dead; that they may be judged as if they were in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

Emeth: Cold Steel i dont care about modern day christian 'scholars'

That's up to you. It's one reason the Adventist position has been so thoroughly discredited. It's a fact that ancient Judaism and Christianity believed that men had spirits. And many even believed in premortality, which was branded a heresy in the fourth century. The Greeks had nothing to do with bringing that concept to Christianity because it was already there. It's all throughout extra-biblical Christian writings of the day. The so-called Apocalypse of Peter, which almost made it into our Bible (instead of the Apocalypse of John) is full of it. If the Governing Body continues to hold to the Adventist position, they'll have to ignore reams of evidence to the contrary. Man does not sleep at death. Only his body sleeps.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Cold steel- you, mate, are stuck on thinking everything that tries to gain converts is a cult...mormons even say that christianity was and is a cult right?

Of course early Christianity was a cult, just as early Mormonism was a cult. Pliny used the word "cult" to describe Christians as did most of the Roman Empire. A cult is a religion that is based on another religion and adds to it. Often it centers around one leader and followers who believe in that leader. Jesus fits such a leader as does Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White. In the first century, there was a vicious strain of Judaism called the Zealots, which caused many innocent Jews to be crucified. Then there were the Essenes, gnostic Christians and so forth.

[But] imagine if people could hold their ideas, and i stress IDEAS, without being told they are wrong...and if the are wrong, having concrete proof to show it but without discrimination. Or better yet, imagine a place where things are NOT viewed in religous biases or preconceived notions....for me, call it atheism, but it is the natural world that is testable and observable that i find fascinating. Hide behind your walls of religion while pretending to accept all people but for le agnostics and atheists are the most open minded individuals ive met....

I don't see myself as hiding behind religion. I'm content to abiden in a revelation we believe was given to Joseph Smith: "Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven." I agree it would be nice if people could hold their beliefs without being attacked, but this world is quite a ways from being that.

[It's] easy to say that your religion doesnt negate evolution...but ask yourself mate, and really read each line and verse of your bible....Does science and the universe and evolution negate Religion or GOD....trust me there are MANY holes!

Well, I second that there are holes. And Mormons don't believe the Bible is either complete or inerrent (and we get heat about that from other Christians). There are numerous errors in the Bible: historical problems, prophetic problems, contradictions, scientific problems and superstition. Even Paul states many things that are simply his own opinions. So yes, there are holes. Anything produced by and conveyed by man is bound to have faults.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Put it this way cold steel.... if you think that photo is literal.... it isn't..... it is neither science or fact. It is a bing search result! That picture is not what any scientist from Darwin on has EVER said, funny how christians believe it and have seen that phoyo everywhere. Why are you so lazy about checking facts? Do you not want to know the answers? I don't comprehend someone who goesno further than typing into a search engine and assuming that is enough....

It's just not something I'm interested in. If you say the picture isn't representative of evolution, I have no reason not to believe you. And I confess I'm ignorant on the subject, which is why I don't really have an opinion on it. But getting back to the picture, I've seen it for years in various forms. Many think that the first humans lived in caves and dropped out of trees. Some don't. I imagine it's a debated topic even among anthropologists. Having been told that picture is not representative of evolution, I won't use it again.

Thanks for the input!

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

SnareAndRacket: What on earth do any of these things have to do with the TRUTH of whether there is a god or not?

Nothing. Just that the world seems to be just as well off with religionists as atheists. Like I said, atheism is as much of a religion...cult, if you will, as any others. They go the gamut from tolerant and well behaved to rude and evengelical. That's all I was getting at. I'm completely openminded to evolution and don't feel that it closes the door on faith.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

LisaRose: Cold Steel, you know nothing about evolution, or anything else for that matter. Evolution does not teach we descended from apes. If you can't get this one simple point then your opinion is useless, you are making a fool out of yourself.

I suspect you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole there. I don't know a lot about evolution, granted, because I've never cared enough to really study it. But as Boss Tweed said of Thomas Nast's cartoons, "People don't know how to read, but they do understand them damn pictures!"

By the way, this is from a Bing search on "Evolution." I reckon a lot of folks must be confused about it. That thing on the far left sure looks like an ape to me, but I'm open to correction.

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Laika: Yes it was. And are we about to have a JW v Mormon debate? Delightful!

I think you misunderstood my answer. I don't for a moment doubt that the malefactor will gain eternal life through the Atonement; my point is that people don't go to Heaven without first understanding the Gospel. Our earth probations don't always end at death. Jesus was saying to the malefactor, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." That doesn't mean the man was resurrected or went to be with God. Jesus went to Paradise, but he didn't go to Heaven. I suspect the second malefactor also received an opportunity to hear the Gospel as well. We don't know his past or what he would say if he also had an opportunity to hear it.

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Emeth: Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu′ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai′. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.

We’re gonna have to disagree on this one, my friend. Very few Christian scholars today believe in the idea that angels lusted after women and took them as wives. For one thing, no one had yet been resurrected; therefore, all angels were thus spirits and incapable of having sexual intercourse with flesh and blood mortals. Throughout the scriptures, the people of God have always been told that they are the children (actual offspring) of God. The “sons of men,” on the other hand, are those who are not born under the covenant. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” (John 7:72). Also: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:74)

Also note this passage from Job: “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.” (1:6; 2:7) Thus, even before men came into the earth (Jeremiah 1:5), they were called the “sons of God.” This part of our existence was called the “first estate” and our existence on Earth is our “second estate.” That’s why the Lord told Jeremiah that before He knew him, He called him and ordained him to the ministry. It’s also why, when the Lord healed the man who was “born blind,” the apostles asked, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” How could that man have sinned before his birth if he did not previously exist?

But when did this happen? Satan and his angels rebelled before Adam was placed in the Garden. And he drew away a third of the sons of God, and they were cast to Earth. That’s what is meant in the book of Revelation when John writes that the tail of the serpent drew away a third of the stars. This did not happen in the days of the flood, but preceding the creation of the earth.

Spirits are not able to become flesh, and there is no precedent for that ever happening. Satan and his angels are not flesh, and they will never be able to take upon them flesh. Because we came to Earth and because of the Atonement, we will all be resurrected, both good and evil. Those who receive eternal life will become co-heirs with Christ, and receive all that the Father has.

Peter 4:6: “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” The notion that the early Christians believed that the soul sleeps at death is only popular among Adventists, and Ecclesiastes 9:5 is a philosophical view of the writer. If Solomon is the author, remember that he wasn’t a prophet and that this book is a philosophical book and not an eschatological one. At the end of his life Solomon had numerous wives and concubines who worshiped false gods and who manipulated him into erecting altars to their gods. He had sinned against God and his writings reflect his own failures. Even so, he later states that “then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7) The terms “spirit” and “breath” mean the same in both Hebrew and Greek, but in context, it’s highly unlikely that the “breath” returns to God.

Peter tells us that while Jesus’ body was in the tomb, his spirit went to Paradise, which, as we’ve seen, is the spirit world. (See Origen’s statement.) Origen was a very early church father, and Josephus was an old-school Jew; yet both believed that men had spirits. Origen, who studied the writings of those in the early church, taught unabashedly that the spirits of men go to Paradise, a place of teaching. This also is completely consistent with many of the near death experiences written by people in our own day. Certain things are consistent in such accounts:

The spirit realm is as real a place as this world is to us. There are buildings of astounding beauty, colors far exceeding those in our world and comprised of people we knew while we were alive. Many report that animals roam freely, and one person said he saw a lion of exquisite beauty, and that he instinctively became fearful. His guide, sensing his fear, explained that all enmity between man and beast no longer exists, nor is there anything to fear from harm. “Can I pet him,” the man said? The guide nodded and said, “Ask him.” The author then reports that the lion was able to communicate with him, and that he also told him he had nothing to fear. He then moved his head under the man’s hand and tipped it up so that his hands lay between its ears. He said that the lion felt just as solid to him as a real lion would. The spirit world, according to the vast majority, has mountains, trees, gardens, homes and places of learning. They also say it’s big, far bigger than our earth.

Again, I mention this because it’s consistent with what the early Christians taught. Some even report seeing friends they knew before they came to the earth, people who had lived in other periods of time. No one had wings, like that ridiculous movie making the rounds, Heaven Is For Real, claims. If man really is the offspring of God, then it’s unlikely he has wings like a chicken.

One woman I’ve communicated with by e-mail has everything that happened to her documented. Her death, her time in the morgue, the time she flatlined and the time she returned to her body (according to hospital personnel). Interestingly, she said the people who had the most difficult times adjusting to life in the spirit were the ones who didn’t believe in it.

Bottom line, how can we trust the Bible when people can read it in so many ways? Why would Jesus go to the spirit world just to render judgment and condemn those who lived in the days of Noah? Don’t you think there were people in the world during the days of Noah—children, people who never had the chance to hear Noah’s message or who may have just been misled? Then there were many people since who also could benefit from being taught the gospel...like the malefactor on the cross. In the end you believe as you wish. We have enough extrabiblical writings now from the second and third centuries to know for a fact that the early Christians believed man has a spirit.

.

33

Evolution is just a theory

by donny in

for those who have heard this comment, check out aron ra's great site.. http://www.aronra.com/.

Cold Steel

Evolution can be called whatever scientists want to call it. It is scientifically demonstrable that species come, they change, and they go, and for the most part I see no reason to cling on to every generation that's on its way out (something modern liberals are intent to prevent). That said, one can believe in evolution and religion, the latter by nature which is a matter of faith and is not provable. But when people cling to things that are demonstrably incorrect, such as a flat earth or a "young" earth, minds are a difficult thing to change.

On the religious side, Abraham was said to have been taught astronomy by the Lord and, in turn, he taught the early Egyptians. Most religionists don't pretend to know about science, but as one myself, I'm very much impressed by prophecy throughout the ages. I've also found, through sad experience, that atheism is very much a religion, and a very stubborn, evangelical, fundamentalist religion at that -- every bit as petty, vindictive, petulant and narrow minded at the most ardent fundamentalist Christian.

I've read numerous "near death" experiences and have even talked to those who have claimed to have them. I'm convinced, based on their characters, the similarities in their accounts and their stories that they've had very real out of the body experiences. For example, I know that when I dream, I don't see color or in 3D; conversations in dreams are fragmented and lack details. Under prescribed medications, in the past, I even suffered hallucinations (which I vividly recall). Nothing yet has compared to the accounts I've heard from people who maintain that when we die, we go to a place that's as real as the world we now inhabit. I can't prove their accounts are true, any more than I can prove the doctrines in the Bible. But I remain open to such things. And if it improves society, so much the better. Nothing I've seen in atheism makes people better, more intelliigent, more creative or even more educated. Men of God have made outstanding military officers, like Douglas MacArthur, Robert E. Lee and George Washington; historians, archeologists, astrophysicists, geologists, anthropologists, writers, presidents, educators, economists, philosophers, like C.E. Lewis, Augustine, Turtullian; spiritual leaders, neighbors and colleagues. Atheism has not made society more intelligent, more tolerant, more humane, nor has it improved science or even the way people vote.

Evolution, like the Trinity, is viewed so differently due to man's inability to arrive at common understanding. Many Christians can believe in evolution without believing that man came from apes. And I find nothing inherently bad in believing that man is, rather, the offspring of his creator and that the universe came about through intelligent design.

.

45

Why did Jesus tell the convict on the cross next to his, that he would be joining him in Heaven TODAY??

by Faithful Witness in

maybe a silly question, but i'm curious about this part of the story of christ's crucifixion, when the 1 thief challenges jesus to save himself and "us too" from their deaths, but the 2nd thief rebukes him and pleads with jesus... .

luke 23:42-43: and he said unto jesus, lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.. .

Cold Steel

Faithful Witness: Since Jesus took this guy with him to heaven immediately, would he be considered "anointed" and qualified to sit as a judge with Christ, even though he was a criminal who "deserved" the death penalty?

Yes, it’s all about the placement of the comma. In short, the Jehovah’s Witnesses render the scripture: “I’m telling you today, you’re gonna be with me in Paradise!”

But there are a number of basics one must consider before one begins a reasonable exegesis of the scripture. First, “Paradise” is not heaven. Jesus said when he was resurrected: “...for I have not yet ascended unto heaven.” Also, that figure of speech, “I’m telling you today,” is not found anywhere in the New Testament.

What is Paradise? It’s the world of spirits, to which all men go when they die. The early church father, Origen, wrote about this specifically: “After death,” he writes, “I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”

So where did Jesus go during the time he died and the time he was resurrected? He went to Paradise, to preach to the spirits there. Peter writes: “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18-20) He also writes: “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

Paradise is thus a holding area where the spirits of men who lived on the earth await the judgment and the resurrection. The gospel is preached to the dead so they can be judged like men in the flesh, yet live according to God in the spirit. Thus it makes sense that Jesus was simply promising the malefactor on the cross that he would go to a place where he could be taught the gospel, where, again, he could ultimately be judged as if he’d accepted the gospel in the flesh, yet live as a spirit. It was not a free ticket to heaven.

Design: Then there's the whole weirdness about- did god die for a split second....

By “death” do you mean ceasing to exist or the separation of body and spirit? Jesus never for an instant ceased to exist, just as you will never for an instant cease to exist. But yes, his spirit left his body. As he, himself, said, only he had power to lay his life down and then take it up again. If he had ceased to exist for just a fraction, he never would have been able to take it up again. For example, reach down now (if you’re working on a desktop) and just briefly hit the reset switch. Did your computer retain its memory and functions, or did it lose everything, requiring a complete reboot? Such a thing would completely remove everything from memory, and if you didn’t allow your computer to reboot (or to relearn everything that’s read into it from the hard drive), it would simply be a boat anchor.

.